Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
-
Simone Baschirotto
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:09 pm
Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Probably many of you have this version in better condition, I still haven't found a better one at an affordable price. I wonder what year this version was released. I believe the cranks went from wood to aluminum in very similar times for CAP and Mitchell to egg. I know that many do not think like me but I judge by looking at my reels. I have used very complex metal analyzers for the alloys of the various reels, I have noticed similarities between some versions of cap and mitchell pre 300. This can help to date some reels with more precision. I will need more time, I try to exploit my possibilities with new methods combined with studies made by other more experienced people. I collect, read and observe maybe one day I can give a little help to all of you
- Attachments
-
- FB_IMG_1625512446742.jpg (34.42 KiB) Viewed 9701 times
-
- FB_IMG_1625512450401.jpg (29.77 KiB) Viewed 9701 times
-
- FB_IMG_1625512454096.jpg (37.77 KiB) Viewed 9701 times
-
- FB_IMG_1625512459402.jpg (32.81 KiB) Viewed 9700 times
-
cshannon772
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:43 pm
- Location: Woodbridge, VA
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Hello Simone,
A beautiful and very early CAP reel which is in good condition compared to many that I have observed. Keep in mind that Carpano et Pons did not use a primer paint on these early reels and the black paint was not of the quality of follow on reels years later. At the risk of offending every CAP / Mitchell 304 Collector and Enthusiast in the Free World, I will tell you what I know, my observations and my opinions of the very early evolution of the CAP based on my (and several other collectors) 10 years of collecting/researching these reels.
I'll state up front: These are my findings and opinions which I'm happy to discuss with everyone - I'm not going to argue or have to defend them with anyone.
With that stated Simone, I believe your CAP is a 2nd Version Carpano et Pons manufactured reel which was produced during WW II in very limited numbers. In 1936/37 La Canne a' Peche (which is actually where CAP comes from not from Carpano et Pons) was a major fishing tackle (amongst other merchandise) distributor throughout France. They contracted a company called AMR to manufacture a fixed spool fishing reel. It was quite rudimentary and heavy with CAP cast into the back of the body and these reels were made in very limited numbers for a very short period of time. In 1937 La Canne a' Peche approached Carpano et Pons to improve on the design of the CAP reel based on the design of the PECOS fishing reel which was also being manufactured in France at the time. The first reel manufactured by Carpano et Pons for La Canne a' Peche (I call the 1st Version CAP (only because it is the first in a long line of manufacturing for Carpano et Pons)) was in late 1937 /early 1938. While still manufactured in relatively small batches, La canne a' Peche continued their association with Carpano et Pons and would eventually become Mitchell (and the Mitchell reel) in I believe 1939 just prior to the War. The 1st Version CAP had a bakelite handle of the same design and dimensions as the later wood handle and even later aluminum handles. There was no counter weight on (or inside) the rotor cup. It had a six pillar (deep or large) spool in aluminum. The handle shaft screwed to the main gear shaft with a flathead screw. These reels were produced until the War had a dramatic effect on France's economy, probably around late 1940 / early 1941 and the stock for the 1st Version ran out. The 2nd Version likely started production then. The 2nd Version had a wooden handle - bakelite was a plastic and therefore petroleum based which would have been in short supply; hence wood which would have been plentiful in the Arve Vally of France around Cluses. The spool shifted to an 8 pillar, shallow or small spool to preserve fishing line. An improved rotor with an outside counterweight was added. The handle shaft now screwed onto the threaded main gear shaft.
We need to understand that Cluses and the Arve Valley was never occupied during the entirety of the War. While there were certainly hardships and heartbreak for the people and France as a whole, life would have continued as best the people could in Cluses. The German occupation/over-run was far to the North and the Italian occupation (later in the War) was to the East. The argument that aluminum would have been non-existent is absurd as the Country was littered with it from aircraft (Mostly aluminum) falling throughout the countryside. The other argument is when patents were filed (1948). Patents would have been filed in Paris which at the time was being destroyed and overrun by Germans - The Parisians probably had better things to do at the time than file paperwork - another absurd argument.
So Simone, I hope this answers your question - The short answer is your reel a wartime (1941-1945) limited production 2nd Version CAP. I will do a follow up post detailing the early Version CAPs (and their Variations) with photos and rationale for my observations, research and opinions soon.
Kind Regards,
Chris
A beautiful and very early CAP reel which is in good condition compared to many that I have observed. Keep in mind that Carpano et Pons did not use a primer paint on these early reels and the black paint was not of the quality of follow on reels years later. At the risk of offending every CAP / Mitchell 304 Collector and Enthusiast in the Free World, I will tell you what I know, my observations and my opinions of the very early evolution of the CAP based on my (and several other collectors) 10 years of collecting/researching these reels.
I'll state up front: These are my findings and opinions which I'm happy to discuss with everyone - I'm not going to argue or have to defend them with anyone.
With that stated Simone, I believe your CAP is a 2nd Version Carpano et Pons manufactured reel which was produced during WW II in very limited numbers. In 1936/37 La Canne a' Peche (which is actually where CAP comes from not from Carpano et Pons) was a major fishing tackle (amongst other merchandise) distributor throughout France. They contracted a company called AMR to manufacture a fixed spool fishing reel. It was quite rudimentary and heavy with CAP cast into the back of the body and these reels were made in very limited numbers for a very short period of time. In 1937 La Canne a' Peche approached Carpano et Pons to improve on the design of the CAP reel based on the design of the PECOS fishing reel which was also being manufactured in France at the time. The first reel manufactured by Carpano et Pons for La Canne a' Peche (I call the 1st Version CAP (only because it is the first in a long line of manufacturing for Carpano et Pons)) was in late 1937 /early 1938. While still manufactured in relatively small batches, La canne a' Peche continued their association with Carpano et Pons and would eventually become Mitchell (and the Mitchell reel) in I believe 1939 just prior to the War. The 1st Version CAP had a bakelite handle of the same design and dimensions as the later wood handle and even later aluminum handles. There was no counter weight on (or inside) the rotor cup. It had a six pillar (deep or large) spool in aluminum. The handle shaft screwed to the main gear shaft with a flathead screw. These reels were produced until the War had a dramatic effect on France's economy, probably around late 1940 / early 1941 and the stock for the 1st Version ran out. The 2nd Version likely started production then. The 2nd Version had a wooden handle - bakelite was a plastic and therefore petroleum based which would have been in short supply; hence wood which would have been plentiful in the Arve Vally of France around Cluses. The spool shifted to an 8 pillar, shallow or small spool to preserve fishing line. An improved rotor with an outside counterweight was added. The handle shaft now screwed onto the threaded main gear shaft.
We need to understand that Cluses and the Arve Valley was never occupied during the entirety of the War. While there were certainly hardships and heartbreak for the people and France as a whole, life would have continued as best the people could in Cluses. The German occupation/over-run was far to the North and the Italian occupation (later in the War) was to the East. The argument that aluminum would have been non-existent is absurd as the Country was littered with it from aircraft (Mostly aluminum) falling throughout the countryside. The other argument is when patents were filed (1948). Patents would have been filed in Paris which at the time was being destroyed and overrun by Germans - The Parisians probably had better things to do at the time than file paperwork - another absurd argument.
So Simone, I hope this answers your question - The short answer is your reel a wartime (1941-1945) limited production 2nd Version CAP. I will do a follow up post detailing the early Version CAPs (and their Variations) with photos and rationale for my observations, research and opinions soon.
Kind Regards,
Chris
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
That's all I can say!Not home retired and fishing! Or playing with my Mitchell's!
-
Simone Baschirotto
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:09 pm
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
cshannon772 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:47 pm
Thanks Chris for all this information !!! Always the best in this topic! Then we look forward to your full post on these round versions in the future.
-
Wallace Carney
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:09 pm
- Location: Asheville, NC USA
- Contact:
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Chris, the Arve valley was occupied during WW2.
First by the Italians in 1940 when the French surrendered, who claimed it was once part of their land, which was untrue. It was once part of the Kingdom of Sardinia as was part of what was now Italy. A tenuous claim.
When the Italians over-threw Mussolini and his fascists and surrendered in September 1943 the Germans took over, running the area from Lyon. Indeed there are photos of the famous clock museum in Cluses flying the swastika flag as that was the German barracks. There are dozens of photographs on line from this time.
Are you suggesting that Carpano et Pons made reels from scrap aluminium gathered from downed war planes? It was an offence to go anywhere near downed warplanes so any aluminium from them would have to have been done with full German approval.
I don't know who cast the reel parts, but Aluvac in Paris kept going, there is a photograph of the staff outside the factory dated 1945.
I don't think it is necessary to use words like 'absurd'. That is bordering on a person attack and I thought better of you.
I found this on-line some years ago:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0Ve ... es&f=false
First by the Italians in 1940 when the French surrendered, who claimed it was once part of their land, which was untrue. It was once part of the Kingdom of Sardinia as was part of what was now Italy. A tenuous claim.
When the Italians over-threw Mussolini and his fascists and surrendered in September 1943 the Germans took over, running the area from Lyon. Indeed there are photos of the famous clock museum in Cluses flying the swastika flag as that was the German barracks. There are dozens of photographs on line from this time.
Are you suggesting that Carpano et Pons made reels from scrap aluminium gathered from downed war planes? It was an offence to go anywhere near downed warplanes so any aluminium from them would have to have been done with full German approval.
I don't know who cast the reel parts, but Aluvac in Paris kept going, there is a photograph of the staff outside the factory dated 1945.
I don't think it is necessary to use words like 'absurd'. That is bordering on a person attack and I thought better of you.
I found this on-line some years ago:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0Ve ... es&f=false
}<)))'> Bailarm
-
cshannon772
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:43 pm
- Location: Woodbridge, VA
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Thank you Mates for the nice comments. I have invested many years in researching the CAP / Mitchell 304 evolution and history.
For Bailarm:
Nobby, I apologize for the "absurd" term. It was not directed at any one person or persons but at the idea in general, which I've heard repeatedly. I meant no offense and I should have used a better word.
I appreciate the reference to the book A Long Way From The Start but if you read in the front matter under the copyright, it states that "This is a work of fiction, names, characters, places and incidents are a product of the authors imagination" so probably not a highly reliable reference to the times.
I'm not suggesting that Carpano et Pons harvested aluminum from downed aircraft but simply it was readily available to the industry whether the Germans approved or not - The Germans didn't approve of the Patriots of the French Resistance either, but they had a significant impact on the War effort.
I have yet to see a map of wartime France which shows German or Italian "Occupation" of the area around or even very close to the Arve Valley and Cluses. Was there a German/Italian presence - absolutely, off and on. But an "Occupation" is the complete takeover of the government at the federal and local level, all industry and commerce - That didn't happen in Cluses as far as I can determine.
The Nazi flag would have been common after France fell to the Germans as the flag of France was outlawed and would have resulted in immediate prosecution or death to anyone displaying it...Essentially (and sadly) the flag with the swastika became the national flag of France and was commonly flown throughout the country - It was better than being shot.
I'm not surprised to see a photo of the ALUVAC Staff gathered and dated 1945 as France was liberated by Allied Forces in August of 1944 - The oppressors had been gone for at least six months.
Nobby, I appreciate the discussion and your well thought out points, but thus far I can't be convinced that the CAP reel did not start production around 1937 (the Mitchell following soon after) and continued throughout WW II.
I think we can all agree on an anchor point of the well known and documented CAP 54 (1954)? If we back-track from there, I have documented nine significant changes/variations in the CAP reel from what I would call the first Version Carpano et Pons Manufactured reel. So if we agree with some peoples thinking that the CAP and Mitchell reel didn't start production until after the war. Let's say 1946 to allow for infrastructure rebuilding etc.. That would require nine changes to the CAP reel in less than eight years, not to mention the design and manufacture of the Mitchell reel at the same time. I'm a professional Systems Engineer with significant experience (15 years currently) in industrial engineering/manufacturing. I can tell you that is not possible. Even with today's "Agile Development, Digital Engineering, CAD and other tools/modeling, the engineering and retooling would not be possible..In 2021 much less 1946 - 1954.
Only my thoughts and opinions Mates but I do appreciate and enjoy the discussion.
Kind Regards,
Chris
For Bailarm:
Nobby, I apologize for the "absurd" term. It was not directed at any one person or persons but at the idea in general, which I've heard repeatedly. I meant no offense and I should have used a better word.
I appreciate the reference to the book A Long Way From The Start but if you read in the front matter under the copyright, it states that "This is a work of fiction, names, characters, places and incidents are a product of the authors imagination" so probably not a highly reliable reference to the times.
I'm not suggesting that Carpano et Pons harvested aluminum from downed aircraft but simply it was readily available to the industry whether the Germans approved or not - The Germans didn't approve of the Patriots of the French Resistance either, but they had a significant impact on the War effort.
I have yet to see a map of wartime France which shows German or Italian "Occupation" of the area around or even very close to the Arve Valley and Cluses. Was there a German/Italian presence - absolutely, off and on. But an "Occupation" is the complete takeover of the government at the federal and local level, all industry and commerce - That didn't happen in Cluses as far as I can determine.
The Nazi flag would have been common after France fell to the Germans as the flag of France was outlawed and would have resulted in immediate prosecution or death to anyone displaying it...Essentially (and sadly) the flag with the swastika became the national flag of France and was commonly flown throughout the country - It was better than being shot.
I'm not surprised to see a photo of the ALUVAC Staff gathered and dated 1945 as France was liberated by Allied Forces in August of 1944 - The oppressors had been gone for at least six months.
Nobby, I appreciate the discussion and your well thought out points, but thus far I can't be convinced that the CAP reel did not start production around 1937 (the Mitchell following soon after) and continued throughout WW II.
I think we can all agree on an anchor point of the well known and documented CAP 54 (1954)? If we back-track from there, I have documented nine significant changes/variations in the CAP reel from what I would call the first Version Carpano et Pons Manufactured reel. So if we agree with some peoples thinking that the CAP and Mitchell reel didn't start production until after the war. Let's say 1946 to allow for infrastructure rebuilding etc.. That would require nine changes to the CAP reel in less than eight years, not to mention the design and manufacture of the Mitchell reel at the same time. I'm a professional Systems Engineer with significant experience (15 years currently) in industrial engineering/manufacturing. I can tell you that is not possible. Even with today's "Agile Development, Digital Engineering, CAD and other tools/modeling, the engineering and retooling would not be possible..In 2021 much less 1946 - 1954.
Only my thoughts and opinions Mates but I do appreciate and enjoy the discussion.
Kind Regards,
Chris
-
Wallace Carney
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:09 pm
- Location: Asheville, NC USA
- Contact:
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Hello,
Herewith some pictures of CAP reels
On the first the different versions of half-PU reels.
On the next two a CAP on the right foot
The last two a reel on deported foot which was produced in very very few copies (according to the book by B Caminade, author of reference for French reels)
I will soon put on this site the photos of the CAP with planamatic mechanics, reel conforming to the patent
Best Regards
CL
Herewith some pictures of CAP reels
On the first the different versions of half-PU reels.
On the next two a CAP on the right foot
The last two a reel on deported foot which was produced in very very few copies (according to the book by B Caminade, author of reference for French reels)
I will soon put on this site the photos of the CAP with planamatic mechanics, reel conforming to the patent
Best Regards
CL
- CAP 1.jpg (374.02 KiB) Viewed 9523 times
- CAP PIED DROIT 1.jpg (404.55 KiB) Viewed 9523 times
- CAP PIED DROIT 2.jpg (413.27 KiB) Viewed 9523 times
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
NEXT
- CAP PIED DEPORT 1.jpg (404.6 KiB) Viewed 9523 times
- CAP PIED DEPORT 2.jpg (387.76 KiB) Viewed 9523 times
-
Bonaventure
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:09 am
- Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Good Day SIMPLEX,
Those are nice photos
The Pied Droit (Straight Foot) has a very robust foot and stem. I have seen this before, but the Pied Deport (Offset Foot) i have not seen. It also has a foot stem more solid than the later foot stem on the 300 model. A couple of my Mitchell 300 reels were given to me because someone trod on the reel and broke it there.
How rare is the Deport? Do you know what year the Reel was produced? It looks to be in pristine condition. Do you have the Box and papers that came with the reel when it was new? It looks like you are very lucky to find this item.
You have a very nice collection of Round Body Mitchells.
Best wishes
G. Glen Simpson
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Those are nice photos
The Pied Droit (Straight Foot) has a very robust foot and stem. I have seen this before, but the Pied Deport (Offset Foot) i have not seen. It also has a foot stem more solid than the later foot stem on the 300 model. A couple of my Mitchell 300 reels were given to me because someone trod on the reel and broke it there.
How rare is the Deport? Do you know what year the Reel was produced? It looks to be in pristine condition. Do you have the Box and papers that came with the reel when it was new? It looks like you are very lucky to find this item.
You have a very nice collection of Round Body Mitchells.
Best wishes
G. Glen Simpson
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
-
Ted Lanham
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:00 pm
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Greetings Simplex,
I'm in the same boat as Glen. I've never seen a "Pied Deport " before, that I can remember
Regards.
Ted Lanham
I'm in the same boat as Glen. I've never seen a "Pied Deport " before, that I can remember
Regards.
Ted Lanham
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Hello
Glen and Ted,
This reel was considered as a prototype by specialists at the beginning, but after a few reels were found and then considered as a reel manufactured in very small series.
I have no documentation and no box. I've had it for a good fifteen years, but I don't know when it was made.
Best regards
CL
Glen and Ted,
This reel was considered as a prototype by specialists at the beginning, but after a few reels were found and then considered as a reel manufactured in very small series.
I have no documentation and no box. I've had it for a good fifteen years, but I don't know when it was made.
Best regards
CL
-
Bonaventure
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:09 am
- Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Allo SIMPLEX,
Except for the Pied Droit, most Mitchell's have an offset bend that places the reel farther back. Well OK, the Pied Droit does as well, just not very much. However, the Pied Deport places the reel in the opposite direction, toward the Rod Tip and quite a bit forward.
Mon Ami, there will be a lot of interest in this reel by collectors on this side of the Atlantic. If you could locate a couple of more you could for sure score some points here
Best wishes, I am interested in where this thread will go.
Bon soiree
Glen en Nouvelle Ecosse
Except for the Pied Droit, most Mitchell's have an offset bend that places the reel farther back. Well OK, the Pied Droit does as well, just not very much. However, the Pied Deport places the reel in the opposite direction, toward the Rod Tip and quite a bit forward.
Mon Ami, there will be a lot of interest in this reel by collectors on this side of the Atlantic. If you could locate a couple of more you could for sure score some points here
Best wishes, I am interested in where this thread will go.
Bon soiree
Glen en Nouvelle Ecosse
-
Simone Baschirotto
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:09 pm
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
wow, thanks for this info and pictures!Simplex wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:53 am Hello,
Herewith some pictures of CAP reels
On the first the different versions of half-PU reels.
On the next two a CAP on the right foot
The last two a reel on deported foot which was produced in very very few copies (according to the book by B Caminade, author of reference for French reels)
I will soon put on this site the photos of the CAP with planamatic mechanics, reel conforming to the patent
Best Regards
CLCAP 1.jpg
CAP PIED DROIT 1.jpg
CAP PIED DROIT 2.jpg
Cordiali Saluti
Simone
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
So is CAP derived from La Canne a' Peche ? Trying to understand.
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Reelfreak, Chris Shannon spells it out very well in the second post of this thread. I trust his expertise.
Sandman
Sandman
-
Paul Rochard
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:35 pm
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Simone Baschirotto, neighbors from beyond the seas, dear fishing and Mitchell reels enthusiasts,
I would like to intervene to give my family's version (that of the creators and owners of La Canne à Pêche from 1931 to 1960) and to answer some of questions above first. In a second time, I would like to know sources that make you say what CAP reels were created in 1937 or 1939.
First of all, Simone, Mitchell reel is inspired by Léon Rochard's creation : CAP reel, which is why the first versions are very similar.
ReelFreak, that's it, CAP means Canne à Pêche (or La Canne à Pêche, it full name).
If you would like to read here what I know from my family archives, La Canne à Pêche, this fishing rods factory in Angers, was created in 1931 by three men : Joanny Charou from Lyon, Léon Rochard from Angers, and his brother, Emile Rochard, director of La Canne à Pêche, my ancestor. Léon Rochard and Joanny Charou ran the sales in Angers and in Lyon, in a branch of La Canne à Pêche. Business was so good that they were considering lauching news articles for sale in 1939 with split bamboo rods, but no mention of CAP reel. The war stopped their progress, but the factory did not close, despite the cessation of imports from Japon (bamboo), Norway (hooks), Spain (horsehair) and Italy (reed), the bosses found alternatives (the creation of the Cannelle factory for the new production of hooks in Angers in 1942 for example) and they start thiking about a new type of rod and a new reel. Other problems arose in 1944 : the arrest of Emile Rochard by the German secret police and the deportation of Joanny Charou (last one verifiable in FranceArchives' website). It was only at the end of the Second World War that my sources mention a reel, the one designed by Léon Rochard for sport fishing. Thanks to Joanny Charou, who knew Pons and Carpano, La Canne à Pêche entrusted the production of reels to these engineers in Savoie, who then improved Léon Rochard's work to design the Mitcheel reel, but La Canne à Pêche kept the monopoly on sales of both reels (a picture in French language found in the section of the history written by Wallace Carney proves it), I must add that the negociations between the engineers of Cluses, Pons and Carpano, and owners of La Canne à Pêche, Joanny Charou and Rochard brothers were very difficult. Thus, the production of Carpano & Pons reels began at the end of 1945 at best or beggining 1946 and the firts Mitchells were sold in Angers in 1947... Probably earlier in Lyon. You know the rest, in 1946, American soldiers, first those stationned in the Mediterranean Sea, bought Mitchell reels and then brought them home allowing La Canne à Pêche to reach the United States market.
To conclude, my sources, documents from La Canne à Pêche, who have survived many moves, and written testimonies of André Rochard, son of Emile Rochard, who had been tipped as his successor and, consequently, had received information from the bosses of La Canne à Pêche, only reveals the relations with Carpano & Pons after the war, but it is sure that the CAP reel is the creation of Léon Rochard, it seems unlikely that these two engineers in Savoie had touch a CAP reel before the Second World War.
Also, according to a newpaper article from the Courrier de l'Ouest, still being verified, dated January 1990, the production of CAP reels began in 1940 with the help of the firm "Précisions mécaniques du Rhône" in Lyon, however, it was very quickly unable to find the materials to continue production (I think this article is based on oral testimonies from the Charou family).
If you don't believe me, you can contact the chief curator of the Angers Archives, Sylvain Bertoldi, who was able to read and inspect a large part of my sources.
However, I remain open to discussions regarding the exact date of my family's first fixed-spool reel, which is still a mystery to me given the various pieces of information circulating (I'm not talking about my family's testimonies), a subject that we are working to resolve with Mr. Betoldi, but for the moment, without evidence that would indicate the contrary, it seems to me that Léon Rochard designed it between 1942 and 1944.
So I would be happy to analyse your sources, Chris Shannon and Wallace Carney, on the CAP reel if you have any. I have read that you are very attached to the history of Mitchell reels and its preservation, understand that I do the same with my family's legacy.
Wallace, I take this opportunity to tell you that the story you wrote for the Mitchell Reel Museum is a great job because it is one of the main sources used by french vintage reel enthusiasts that I able to contact. Perhaps adding the fact that President Eisenhower received a golden reel for the 1 000 000 Mitchell reel would perfect it.
Sorry if I made mistakes in English.
Regards from France
Paul Rochard
I would like to intervene to give my family's version (that of the creators and owners of La Canne à Pêche from 1931 to 1960) and to answer some of questions above first. In a second time, I would like to know sources that make you say what CAP reels were created in 1937 or 1939.
First of all, Simone, Mitchell reel is inspired by Léon Rochard's creation : CAP reel, which is why the first versions are very similar.
ReelFreak, that's it, CAP means Canne à Pêche (or La Canne à Pêche, it full name).
If you would like to read here what I know from my family archives, La Canne à Pêche, this fishing rods factory in Angers, was created in 1931 by three men : Joanny Charou from Lyon, Léon Rochard from Angers, and his brother, Emile Rochard, director of La Canne à Pêche, my ancestor. Léon Rochard and Joanny Charou ran the sales in Angers and in Lyon, in a branch of La Canne à Pêche. Business was so good that they were considering lauching news articles for sale in 1939 with split bamboo rods, but no mention of CAP reel. The war stopped their progress, but the factory did not close, despite the cessation of imports from Japon (bamboo), Norway (hooks), Spain (horsehair) and Italy (reed), the bosses found alternatives (the creation of the Cannelle factory for the new production of hooks in Angers in 1942 for example) and they start thiking about a new type of rod and a new reel. Other problems arose in 1944 : the arrest of Emile Rochard by the German secret police and the deportation of Joanny Charou (last one verifiable in FranceArchives' website). It was only at the end of the Second World War that my sources mention a reel, the one designed by Léon Rochard for sport fishing. Thanks to Joanny Charou, who knew Pons and Carpano, La Canne à Pêche entrusted the production of reels to these engineers in Savoie, who then improved Léon Rochard's work to design the Mitcheel reel, but La Canne à Pêche kept the monopoly on sales of both reels (a picture in French language found in the section of the history written by Wallace Carney proves it), I must add that the negociations between the engineers of Cluses, Pons and Carpano, and owners of La Canne à Pêche, Joanny Charou and Rochard brothers were very difficult. Thus, the production of Carpano & Pons reels began at the end of 1945 at best or beggining 1946 and the firts Mitchells were sold in Angers in 1947... Probably earlier in Lyon. You know the rest, in 1946, American soldiers, first those stationned in the Mediterranean Sea, bought Mitchell reels and then brought them home allowing La Canne à Pêche to reach the United States market.
To conclude, my sources, documents from La Canne à Pêche, who have survived many moves, and written testimonies of André Rochard, son of Emile Rochard, who had been tipped as his successor and, consequently, had received information from the bosses of La Canne à Pêche, only reveals the relations with Carpano & Pons after the war, but it is sure that the CAP reel is the creation of Léon Rochard, it seems unlikely that these two engineers in Savoie had touch a CAP reel before the Second World War.
Also, according to a newpaper article from the Courrier de l'Ouest, still being verified, dated January 1990, the production of CAP reels began in 1940 with the help of the firm "Précisions mécaniques du Rhône" in Lyon, however, it was very quickly unable to find the materials to continue production (I think this article is based on oral testimonies from the Charou family).
If you don't believe me, you can contact the chief curator of the Angers Archives, Sylvain Bertoldi, who was able to read and inspect a large part of my sources.
However, I remain open to discussions regarding the exact date of my family's first fixed-spool reel, which is still a mystery to me given the various pieces of information circulating (I'm not talking about my family's testimonies), a subject that we are working to resolve with Mr. Betoldi, but for the moment, without evidence that would indicate the contrary, it seems to me that Léon Rochard designed it between 1942 and 1944.
So I would be happy to analyse your sources, Chris Shannon and Wallace Carney, on the CAP reel if you have any. I have read that you are very attached to the history of Mitchell reels and its preservation, understand that I do the same with my family's legacy.
Wallace, I take this opportunity to tell you that the story you wrote for the Mitchell Reel Museum is a great job because it is one of the main sources used by french vintage reel enthusiasts that I able to contact. Perhaps adding the fact that President Eisenhower received a golden reel for the 1 000 000 Mitchell reel would perfect it.
Sorry if I made mistakes in English.
Regards from France
Paul Rochard
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Bonjour Paul,
Your post is very interesting and I have some information for you.
I have carried out research into the early years of the CAP and Mitchell reels. The first CAP reel was made around 1939 and called CAP2. I found several examples of this reel including one in the original box. The design of this reel was registered on 14th March 1939 by La Canne A Peche under registration number 30510. It was also publicised in the third edition of "Les Leurres Legers" by Jean Huillet which was published in 1941 but prepared in 1939.
This reel was followed by an improved reel called CAP3. This reel is more difficult to find because it was made in very small numbers before WW2 intervened. Both of these reels are commonly called Pied Droit.
It is of opinion that these reels were manufactured by Applications Mecanique Du Rhone (AMR) who later made reels called PMR (Precisions Mecanique Du Rhone) and also a very similar reel to the first CAPs called Simplex for Bazin.
The Mitchell biography "Mitchell Story" tells us that Carpano et Pons were asked to improve the design of the pied droit CAP reels and the result was a lighter reel with a sophisticated pick-up. In a magazine feature CAP stated that C et P were contracted to make the new reel after manufacturing difficulties due to WW2.
My opinion is that the the first Carpano-built CAP was made early in 1947, although the evidence for this is not conclusive. The Mitchell was a quite different reel with an egg-shaped body and was first made in 1948. The most important evidence for this is Patent FR969584, applied for on 28 July 1948. This would not have been successful had the reel been available previously.
It has been suggested that the patent office did not function during WW2. This is incorrect as research on the Espacenet site will confirm. A simple example is patent FR900325 which was applied for in 1943 and granted in 1945.
I hope this information is of interest to you. If you wish to see photographs of CAP 2 & 3 reels or documents, just let me know your contact details.
Bien cordialement,
Rolands Babulis.
Your post is very interesting and I have some information for you.
I have carried out research into the early years of the CAP and Mitchell reels. The first CAP reel was made around 1939 and called CAP2. I found several examples of this reel including one in the original box. The design of this reel was registered on 14th March 1939 by La Canne A Peche under registration number 30510. It was also publicised in the third edition of "Les Leurres Legers" by Jean Huillet which was published in 1941 but prepared in 1939.
This reel was followed by an improved reel called CAP3. This reel is more difficult to find because it was made in very small numbers before WW2 intervened. Both of these reels are commonly called Pied Droit.
It is of opinion that these reels were manufactured by Applications Mecanique Du Rhone (AMR) who later made reels called PMR (Precisions Mecanique Du Rhone) and also a very similar reel to the first CAPs called Simplex for Bazin.
The Mitchell biography "Mitchell Story" tells us that Carpano et Pons were asked to improve the design of the pied droit CAP reels and the result was a lighter reel with a sophisticated pick-up. In a magazine feature CAP stated that C et P were contracted to make the new reel after manufacturing difficulties due to WW2.
My opinion is that the the first Carpano-built CAP was made early in 1947, although the evidence for this is not conclusive. The Mitchell was a quite different reel with an egg-shaped body and was first made in 1948. The most important evidence for this is Patent FR969584, applied for on 28 July 1948. This would not have been successful had the reel been available previously.
It has been suggested that the patent office did not function during WW2. This is incorrect as research on the Espacenet site will confirm. A simple example is patent FR900325 which was applied for in 1943 and granted in 1945.
I hope this information is of interest to you. If you wish to see photographs of CAP 2 & 3 reels or documents, just let me know your contact details.
Bien cordialement,
Rolands Babulis.
-
Paul Rochard
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:35 pm
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Merci beaucoup de votre intervention Rolands,
Having received the sources mentioned above and having undertaken to make known the history of La Cann à Pêche to Angers Archives only recently (due to old family feuds and the unwillingness of my predecessors to share it which explain the few sources for the public concerning the Charou-Rochard period of La Canne à Pêche), I had not until then been aware of your research.
Having trained in history, it would be odious to contest your work, which I hope read and examine. However, I have before my eyes private notorial documents, especially concerning Emile and Léon Rochard and their partents which can only give me doubts regarding the production of a reel in 1939 or 1940. Although these cannot call into question the dating of a possible design of CAP reel (but no document that I possess can attest if the existence of the CAP reel before the Second World War either).
Concerning the journalistic sources, those from 1983 to 1990 that I have near me, all contain one or more errors regarding La Canne à Pêche and its bosses (corrected by the hand of Emile Rochard's wife who ded factory's accounting with him).
Yet, André Rochard, the author of the testimonies that I have as sources, was absent from the family environment from 1938 to 1943 (first in Paris, then in Germany before the war and finally in the Resistance, which kept him busy of course), then in 1944 (fleeing the Gestapo), which is why I would tend to believe what you write here. It's obviously interesting for me and my family, I would very happy to see and analyse your sources Rolands.
In any case, I am convinced that La Canne à Pêche was very involved in the production of Carpano & Pons reels because, according to oral testimont of Emile Rochard's wife (who survived him), he received royalties from the sales of Mitchell reels until his death in 1963, three years after selling La Canne à Pêche to Mr. Millet from Valence (I also have a digitized version of La Canne à Pêche catalog from 1962 in French with the different reels sold if this interests some of you, the paper version having been donated to Angers archives). For the Rochard family, these royalties are due to creation of the Mitchell reel by Pons and Carpano inspired by the work of Léon Rochard (of course these are oral sources), however, this may also be due to the contribution of capital from La Canne à Pêche or because the Angers factory supplied the nylon fishing coil purchased from Rhodiaceta (first used to replace the horsehair from Spain at the end of 1942), but this seems too little to pay royalties for at least fifteen years. I add that Rochard brothers quickly made independent the Cannelle factory, producer of hooks in Ponts-de-Cé (near Angers) which they brought from Grandvillars in 1942.
Finally, written testimonies indicate that the three owners of La Canne à Pêche met again at the end of 1945 (Joanny Charou returned in July 1945 according Rhone Departemental Archives), they must have ordered the reel to the engineers of Cluses either at the end of 1945 or at the beginnig of 1946 and production began during this last year, probably the sale off the Mitchell began by Joanny Charou's branch.
We must also go beyond the legend of the name Mitchell which would come from the son or the dog of the chief engineer of Pons, it was a commercial maneuver to attract the ear of American soldiers present in France, which worked well (They were not going to present the origin of the nam like that of course, but we must be realistic now that we have hindsight).
Thank for your sharing, I will contact you later to discuss.
Kind regards
Paul Rochard
Having received the sources mentioned above and having undertaken to make known the history of La Cann à Pêche to Angers Archives only recently (due to old family feuds and the unwillingness of my predecessors to share it which explain the few sources for the public concerning the Charou-Rochard period of La Canne à Pêche), I had not until then been aware of your research.
Having trained in history, it would be odious to contest your work, which I hope read and examine. However, I have before my eyes private notorial documents, especially concerning Emile and Léon Rochard and their partents which can only give me doubts regarding the production of a reel in 1939 or 1940. Although these cannot call into question the dating of a possible design of CAP reel (but no document that I possess can attest if the existence of the CAP reel before the Second World War either).
Concerning the journalistic sources, those from 1983 to 1990 that I have near me, all contain one or more errors regarding La Canne à Pêche and its bosses (corrected by the hand of Emile Rochard's wife who ded factory's accounting with him).
Yet, André Rochard, the author of the testimonies that I have as sources, was absent from the family environment from 1938 to 1943 (first in Paris, then in Germany before the war and finally in the Resistance, which kept him busy of course), then in 1944 (fleeing the Gestapo), which is why I would tend to believe what you write here. It's obviously interesting for me and my family, I would very happy to see and analyse your sources Rolands.
In any case, I am convinced that La Canne à Pêche was very involved in the production of Carpano & Pons reels because, according to oral testimont of Emile Rochard's wife (who survived him), he received royalties from the sales of Mitchell reels until his death in 1963, three years after selling La Canne à Pêche to Mr. Millet from Valence (I also have a digitized version of La Canne à Pêche catalog from 1962 in French with the different reels sold if this interests some of you, the paper version having been donated to Angers archives). For the Rochard family, these royalties are due to creation of the Mitchell reel by Pons and Carpano inspired by the work of Léon Rochard (of course these are oral sources), however, this may also be due to the contribution of capital from La Canne à Pêche or because the Angers factory supplied the nylon fishing coil purchased from Rhodiaceta (first used to replace the horsehair from Spain at the end of 1942), but this seems too little to pay royalties for at least fifteen years. I add that Rochard brothers quickly made independent the Cannelle factory, producer of hooks in Ponts-de-Cé (near Angers) which they brought from Grandvillars in 1942.
Finally, written testimonies indicate that the three owners of La Canne à Pêche met again at the end of 1945 (Joanny Charou returned in July 1945 according Rhone Departemental Archives), they must have ordered the reel to the engineers of Cluses either at the end of 1945 or at the beginnig of 1946 and production began during this last year, probably the sale off the Mitchell began by Joanny Charou's branch.
We must also go beyond the legend of the name Mitchell which would come from the son or the dog of the chief engineer of Pons, it was a commercial maneuver to attract the ear of American soldiers present in France, which worked well (They were not going to present the origin of the nam like that of course, but we must be realistic now that we have hindsight).
Thank for your sharing, I will contact you later to discuss.
Kind regards
Paul Rochard
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Dear Paul,
I have enjoyed discussing this matter with you and Marc. Your special insight into CAP means we now have a very good idea of how the CAP2 came into being and how Carpano et Pons began manufacture after WW2.
Warm regards,
Rolands.
I have enjoyed discussing this matter with you and Marc. Your special insight into CAP means we now have a very good idea of how the CAP2 came into being and how Carpano et Pons began manufacture after WW2.
Warm regards,
Rolands.
-
Paul Rochard
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:35 pm
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
We have indeed exchanged a certain amount of information with Rolands and Marc Rattez.
What is certain is, according to the evidence of the text by Jean Huillet published in 1941 and prepared in 1939, Les leurres légers, that the CAP 2 reel is attested in 1939, but, according to private notarial documents, that its design encountered complications. During the Second World War, Léon Rochard made modifications and created the CAP 3 reel that he presented to Emile Rochard and Joanny Charou after their misadventures in the war. Joanny Charou, knowing Carpano & Pons, contacted the Cluses engineers at the end of 1945 or the beginning of 1946 and they were inspired by the CAP 3 reel to design the Mitchell reel which was produced and sold in 1947 and patented in 1948. Between 1946 and 1948, tough negotiations took place between the owners of La Canne à Pêche and Pons and Carpano, Emile Rochard refusing to let the Cluses engineers take over his brother's work without compensation.
Concerning the testimonies of Carpano & Pons workers such as Emile Pugeot interviewed by Bernard Camenade, there was most certainly confusion between the Pecos reel on which the engineers actually worked in 1939 and the CAP reel which came at the end of the war.
What remains to be proven but is plausible is that the AMR (Application Mécanique du Rhône) or PMR (Précisions mécaniques du Rhône) manufactured for a short time, in 1940, due to lack of materials, the CAP 2 reel in Lyon.
What remains of the theories is that Léon Rochard must have been inspired by the English Illingworth reels, or rather the Hardex from Hardy Bro, which Emile Rochard would have brought back from one of his many business trips, to develop the CAP reel.
While talking with George Saul, I had the idea that the M.O.B. company in Paris was used by Otto Gumprich to sell the Mitchell reel in the United States. But nothing is less certain because Emile Rochard was in contact with the Gumprich family from the 1930s (before 1937) and the Rochard family has a letter from Emile Rochard to Jules Gumprich. So Jules could have shown his brother the reel that Emile (or Léon) Rochard could have presented to him.
A final theory that comes to me while writing the above, the United States Sixth Fleet, from the United States Naval Forces Europe, was formed in 1946 and was attached to Nice from the end of the Second World War, this is probably how American soldiers returned home with so-called "Mitchell" reels, which is agreed with an excerpt from a written testimony that I have.
I remain of course open to discussions and I will try to translate "the history of La Canne à Pêche", which I wrote by compiling information from the Rochard family's testimonies and the documents that I have, to share it with you.
Kind Regards
Paul Rochard
What is certain is, according to the evidence of the text by Jean Huillet published in 1941 and prepared in 1939, Les leurres légers, that the CAP 2 reel is attested in 1939, but, according to private notarial documents, that its design encountered complications. During the Second World War, Léon Rochard made modifications and created the CAP 3 reel that he presented to Emile Rochard and Joanny Charou after their misadventures in the war. Joanny Charou, knowing Carpano & Pons, contacted the Cluses engineers at the end of 1945 or the beginning of 1946 and they were inspired by the CAP 3 reel to design the Mitchell reel which was produced and sold in 1947 and patented in 1948. Between 1946 and 1948, tough negotiations took place between the owners of La Canne à Pêche and Pons and Carpano, Emile Rochard refusing to let the Cluses engineers take over his brother's work without compensation.
Concerning the testimonies of Carpano & Pons workers such as Emile Pugeot interviewed by Bernard Camenade, there was most certainly confusion between the Pecos reel on which the engineers actually worked in 1939 and the CAP reel which came at the end of the war.
What remains to be proven but is plausible is that the AMR (Application Mécanique du Rhône) or PMR (Précisions mécaniques du Rhône) manufactured for a short time, in 1940, due to lack of materials, the CAP 2 reel in Lyon.
What remains of the theories is that Léon Rochard must have been inspired by the English Illingworth reels, or rather the Hardex from Hardy Bro, which Emile Rochard would have brought back from one of his many business trips, to develop the CAP reel.
While talking with George Saul, I had the idea that the M.O.B. company in Paris was used by Otto Gumprich to sell the Mitchell reel in the United States. But nothing is less certain because Emile Rochard was in contact with the Gumprich family from the 1930s (before 1937) and the Rochard family has a letter from Emile Rochard to Jules Gumprich. So Jules could have shown his brother the reel that Emile (or Léon) Rochard could have presented to him.
A final theory that comes to me while writing the above, the United States Sixth Fleet, from the United States Naval Forces Europe, was formed in 1946 and was attached to Nice from the end of the Second World War, this is probably how American soldiers returned home with so-called "Mitchell" reels, which is agreed with an excerpt from a written testimony that I have.
I remain of course open to discussions and I will try to translate "the history of La Canne à Pêche", which I wrote by compiling information from the Rochard family's testimonies and the documents that I have, to share it with you.
Kind Regards
Paul Rochard
-
Paul Rochard
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:35 pm
Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni
Sorry, I made a mistake, it is not M.O.B. compagny, but M.O.P. compagny.